Prince George Vintage Motorcycle Club
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dennis on May 07, 2018, 09:55:14 AM
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In anticipation of riding my BMW R65 for the Dawson City tour, Club members helped pull the tranny and replace the oil seal on the engine. Check.
Went through the wiring to sort out gremlins. Check
New battery. Check
Insurance. Check.
Overflowing fuel on one carburetor, tweaked and seems fixed. Check.
Test run on Friday Night. An odd scraping sound coming from the transmission; lasted a second or so then went away. Rode some more, sound return and goes away when shifted to another gear. Seems okay but worried. Venture to Pineview. Grinding sound returns with a vengeance and I nurse the bike home. Parked since.
The last thing I want to do is pull the transmission when I don't even know what has failed in it. It obviously has to come out, but the Stolen Sportster is occupying my bike hoist while I do things on it.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
Friday night
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And that?s the reason I now own a new motorcycle, don?t have any intentions of ever being without something with more age but having something new to get on and ride is kind of growing on me.
Later, Bob
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so... when's shop night?
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Crappy! Odd that your Harley is more reliable than your Beemer. I suspect it is something that got missed on the last go-round, hopefully Guy can offer some insight? Don't give up yet! CHEERS.
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I wonder if one of the pressure plate bolts has come loose or there is something caught in the plate that rubs on occasion? Since you didn't open the gear-box and the only remove and replace was the clutch assembly it's probably a good place to start. Lucky the unit splits so easily.
Just a thought.
Steve
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I wonder if one of the pressure plate bolts has come loose or there is something caught in the plate that rubs on occasion? Since you didn't open the gear-box and the only remove and replace was the clutch assembly it's probably a good place to start. Lucky the unit splits so easily.
Just a thought.
Steve
This is my hope Steve,... just a clutch issue.
However, a little diagnosis last night has me worried. The bike is now stripped down to where I can just unbolt the tranny and pull it off, so I can't fire it up and show the brethren the way it was.
My last observation before disassembling was that: While in neutral with clutch lever in the engaged position (let out), engine not running, and pushing the bike from my driveway onto the lift, it made a grinding scraping sound (not nearly as intense as engine running, clutch released in neutral).
Query: If the bike is being moved, the rear wheel via the drive shaft is turning the transmission. If the transmission is in neutral, nothing should be moving at the clutch. Engine was not running. Still a scraping sound.
Feed back appreciated.
Tranny ready to be pulled and I would be grateful for some looky loos.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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you had the entire final drive pulled apart as well, anything fouling the ujoint?
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you had the entire final drive pulled apart as well, anything fouling the ujoint?
Believe it or not, I did inspect the universal and it is not as smooth as it should be. However, I am confident that is NOT my problem. At most the universal would cause some vibration. Also, the horrific grinding sound that occurs when the engine is running, but in neutral and clutch let out would not occur if it was the universal joint because, at that point its not moving.
Thanks for the analysis. I recall you solving my electronic ignition problem with about as many clues as Poirot.
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I suppose the answer will become painfully clear once the tranny is split and there should be an amount of filings accumulated in the housing. Which reminds me - if you drain the transmission oil, have a look for your filings there. That could serve to eliminate an area without opening up the box.
In my limited experience with the boxer engines there's really only a couple of places you can get that sort of sound and couple this with the recent removal of the transmission and clutch so logic would dictate the issue is right there. When the pressure plate is removed and replaced it's difficult to get it wrong as there's usually a clear marker for positioning and only 4 bolts to do up. Clearances are such that there is usually enough to allow for small differences but if the scraping noise is intermittent then something is out of round or off-center. Again probably discovered quickly once the transmission is removed.
good luck!!
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Clutch looks fine with no debris in the bottom or obvious scoring marks.
(https://i.imgur.com/V2DYgTb.jpg)
36 years of a seal being tight takes a little convincing to open up. I have been very careful to use solvent, heat, gentle rubber mallet, and time. The wedges are plastic. Still not opened up yet.
(https://i.imgur.com/75oOFrX.jpg)
The grinding noise was intermittent when it first appeared. Once I had the tranny out and turned the input and output shafts while in neutral, it was obviously not turning smoothly; could feel and hear it. After bouncing the tranny around while trying to remove the output drive and the kick start lever, it went nice and smooth again.
As Steve says, I guess I will know when the case is open. .... which is hopefully just a rubber mallet bonk away.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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If all else fails I know of a BMW 650 that is looking for a new home, only reason being dad is bringing home a new kid and there isn?t room for all the kids he currently has.
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The Good:
Transmission is open, but I have not actually pulled out the components. I am hoping I persuade Mr. Hudson to have a look before I go further. However, first visual inspection is that everything looks fine: no chunks of metal, no obvious scraped or worn parts. I can turn the input and output shafts and shift through all gears.
The Bad:
Manual says I should have 0.8 litres of oil in the tranny. There was hardly any. It turns out the neutral light switch on the bottom was very loose. Probably the only thing that kept it from falling out completely was the two wires attached to it would have kept it from continuing to back out.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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I think I'd go back to your original comment about the scraping sound being intermittent. This would usually indicate an elliptical or warped surface contacting a another. If this is the case, what moving parts in the clutch or transmission fit that bill?
If a bearing has eaten it's liver then I could imagine the effect of rollers or balls that have worn to oval scraping against each other or their cages and since the transmission oil level was so low the noise would be projected a lot more than if it was coming through oil. Since there are no obvious signs of filings maybe the next place to look is your bearings? They may turn freely by hand but under a load they could be nasty. This would account for the sound happening in neutral as one shaft would be rotating but not engaged to the other.
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Guy Hudson came by and offered his observations/opinion. The bearings rolled okay to the touch, but one of the sealed ones showed signs of extreme heat; the plastic/nylon (whatever the material is) was warped and dimpled.
Plan is to replace all bearings and seals.
Getting the shafts out was a real challenge since only the bearing for the input and output have through holes.
(https://i.imgur.com/seqT1Nt.jpg)
One of the bearings was badly stuck. I eventually had to weld a tube to it to be able to pull it.
(https://i.imgur.com/IySng8R.jpg)
Now for parts ordering ....
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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Got my replacement bearings and seals. I've cleaned up the cases nicely.
I am replacing all of the bearings, although I am now fairly confident that have identified the one that failed. Curiously, it intermittently spins nicely and then binds. The original problem was intermittent, and even playing with the transmission on the bench before I disassembled it was intermittent.
Some of the bearings were really hard to pull off. This one I had to use some heating and cooling.
(https://i.imgur.com/SSOKkNE.jpg)
All the gears and shafts look really good.
(https://i.imgur.com/Z6teuMP.jpg)
Now for re-assembly. There is a detailed You Tube video out there I need to review. I may have to fabricate a tool for measuring and shimming endplay.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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Here is a video for what I have to do next with the transmission. Russel has loaned me the plate that is used for measuring the end play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZTfH7RPeU8
In the meantime, I noticed that the my universal joint (tranny output to drive shaft) is not in good condition. There is a definite binding on both axis, approximately ? way through the travel.
I was surprised to learn that BMW never engineered the universal joint to be removed and replaced (see my previous thread about the "Debaters"). They sell the complete drive shaft only. Not surprising, the aftermarket has filled in the void.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZwpnaA3.jpg)
The old universal joint is peened in place and that has to be cut out.
(https://i.imgur.com/5r46nAe.png)
Once the new universal joint is pushed in, the four discs have to be welded on.
(https://i.imgur.com/KKflf9T.jpg)
I ordered it today (from Oshmo Custom Motorcycles), and had a great conversation with Osh himself via conference call. Osh was out of the country, and his assistant Mark was at the shop. Osh wanted to make sure I was mechanically skilled enough for the install. I assured him I was. I dealt with Mark to persuade him I was desperate and even the ?priority international shipping? would not suffice. Since I have a Purolator account, it is coming that way in circa two business days. Huge shipping costs on my account ($96) but desperate times call for desperate measures.
I really want to ride this bike to Dawson City. The back up plan is the Stolen Sportster.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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Guy Hudson came by last night and helped me dis-assemble the drive shaft in preparation for changing the universal joint. As of this afternoon, I still don't have the kit from Oshmo. I'm not too worried because I have other tasks to complete first.
Guy suggested freezing the transmission shafts, and heating the bearings. After an hour or so of the bearings in the oven and the shafts in the freezer, we were set to go.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZSkmhP0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jrUkl0u.jpg)
I don't have a press so we just set the bearings on the shafts and hammered them on. Worked like a charm.
I then re-watched the video on measuring the endplay, and took a stab at measuring with my micrometer. It is not very good, and the measurements were inconsistent, and not at all worthy of averaging. I went to uncle Goodgle for some more advice and found this thread.
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/measuring-gearbox-end-play.796697/
(https://i.imgur.com/YTx75tl.jpg)
Basically, the technique is to squish down the cover of the case with the gasket in, to the proper torque specs. Measure the squished solder and subtract 0.05mm (2 - 4 thou inches), and that should be my shim size.
If my shims arrived from Shails today (mail arrives after I leave for work), I will do this next step tonight.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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I discovered on Friday that Shails never sent my shims. Russell Parker came through with some leftovers. After multiple assemblies, the tranny was back together at 3:00 in the morning Saturday night.
Sunday I made the executive decision to move to plan B. I put signal lights and luggage back on the Stolen Sportster. New tires, and an oil change.
Just too much to do and not enough test time to commit to the BMW for Dawson City.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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I haven't posted on this thread for awhile.
This past weekend I dug into the abandoned BMW project which had been sitting exactly as I left it before the Dawson City trip. Summer allows nothing but basic maintenance.
I got the BMW back together last night. I started it up and ran it through all of the gears (on the centre stand and still attached to my hoist). Everything works but for the return shifter spring when shifting down. I have to nudge the shifter up with my toe. DAMN. Hopefully its just the new shifter shaft seal which is pretty tight on the shifter shaft. There is no way I am going to re-open the tranny until I have exhausted a thorough break in.
While it was apart, I removed the Pulse Air Injection System ("PAIS"). Like many motorcycle manufacturers in the 1980s, BMW was doing everything it could to reduce unburned hydrocarbons being released into the atmosphere. The PAIS was an elaborate system that sensed certain vacuum pressure from the carbs which then opened complex air diaphragms in the air box to allow a burst of air into the exhaust output in the head. The extra air was supposed to help burn up gas entering the exhaust when the throttle was suddenly rolled back. While this worked, it also caused excessive heating of the head (particularly in the R100 model), and a notable "popping" sound.
(https://i.imgur.com/K0jfNal.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4GBiHf9.jpg)
All this is now gone.
Whether permitting, I will bring it out tonight.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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I finally got some garage time this weekend and dove back into the BMW.
The bike was stuck in neutral, a few blocks from my house (a few months ago). When removing the tranny, the first alarm bell was a bunch of aluminum shards in the swing arm/shaft drive housing. This is a photo of the rubber boot.
(https://i.imgur.com/1HBVnUn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jAmEAaw.jpg)
It quickly became apparent that the output shaft flange had come loose. The nut was almost backed off all of the way, and the flange was able to flop around.
(https://i.imgur.com/wLCkPXl.jpg)
Pretty clear where the aluminum shards were coming from.
(https://i.imgur.com/kHUbhdt.jpg)
I cleaned up the driveshaft and swing arm. I still have not opened up the tranny.
Peace & Grease, Dennis.
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Shop get together Friday at 7:00 at my shop for anyone who wants to help diagnose my BMW tranny. It?s out of the bike, and opened up, but I have not disassembled the shifting mechanism.
No obvious broken parts.
(https://i.imgur.com/eKIFsDe.jpg)
Peace & grease, Dennis
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Because I have never rebuilt a transmission before, and since Guy has done a few Beemers, and Keith Larrette has done countless Harley transmissions, I wanted feedback from as many minds as possible regarding my BMW R65 shifter problems.
After much fiddling and diddling, the consensus is that the shifter shaft going into the tranny (with seal and bushing) may not have been completely seated. The result was that when the screw holding shaft to the shifter mechanisms was torqued up, it was slightly displacing the one part of the shifter mechanism increasing resistance.
It appears to be operating properly now.
It was a learning experience for those who attended, as the shifting mechanism was handled by everyone to garner their two cents worth.
(https://i.imgur.com/z2Tlnuz.jpg)
On reassembly, it became apparent that the threads on the output shaft (see previous post about the loose output flange), were damaged as was the nut holding the flange. Since the loosened off flange was the result of me assembling the tranny with no reference to a manual or even You Tube, I decided to properly refurbish the threads and then assemble the flange following official BMW protocol (and advice from Guy and Keith). I have to source a tap and die first.
Another thing I learned is that I have got to get one of those magnifying glasses with the built in light. I had a powerful light mounted right above the transmission, and everyone was still squinting to see details. Keith bought his electric magnifying glass, and most wondered how we've working on bikes without one. Cheap at that Dollar Store.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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I was able to buy the correct sized die at Chieftain, but not the correct tap. Instead I purchased a hardened bolt and made one. My thought was the cost of a tap was probably more than a replacement nut if I screwed it up. It appears to have worked fine.
(https://i.imgur.com/gmzHKxq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IbJYSkp.jpg)
Rethreading the output shaft will be another challenge. I greased up the base of the output shaft and then pushed a tight fitting rag over it. The plan is that between the grease and the rags, I should be able to keep any metal filings from falling into the tranny.
(https://i.imgur.com/AoNghXe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OOHHTVt.jpg)
Stopped for now to think through next step. None of my die holders will hold the hex shaped die, the shaft spins too easily, and the die only goes on a half turn or so by hand before I need to start torqueing. My concern is to make sure the die is going on straight. Usually with a couple turns before it binds, I know I've lined it up. I'll probably use a square or something. Task for another night.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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Ive found, by working on german cars, That they take a very different approach to mechanical function than most other manufacturers. There are usually hidden tricks and special tools involved. If BMW builds motorcycles like they build cars I do not envy you sir. Good luck. I find that cursing in german usually helps
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I use a socket or wrench to turn dies all the time. you have to go slowly and pay very close attention to the levelness of the die.
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Fixing the stripped thread and output shaft was a breeze; I followed all the advice various members gave me. Keith said the smooth surfaces of the shaft should be lightly scrubbed with valve lapping compound and then everything carefully cleaned. Guy Hudson said just hold the shaft with channel locks or vice grips while cutting the thread. Kris said he's used a wrench on a die. All worked smoothly.
Guy Hudson took time out of his busy Sunday to come by and show me the correct way to attach the output flange.
When putting the tranny back in the bike I found another feature that BMW engineers could have improved, and modified the tranny case to allow for sliding in a screw a lot easier when installing the tranny.
(https://i.imgur.com/B6mGb3W.jpg)
Put it all back together, fired it up and tested the transmission with the bike on its centre stand. It shifts and the shift leaver springs back. It goes vrooom vrooom.
Finally.
(https://i.imgur.com/39A3P0X.jpg)
With all old motorcycles, the story never ends if you're actually going to ride them. My "love/hate relationship with motorcycles" continues. Today I love them. Tomorrow .....
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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... I still love them.
This actually made me laugh, not cry.
(https://i.imgur.com/e4queaP.jpg)
Its not coming from the tranny. Its from the rubber boot connecting the tranny to the drive shaft.
Peace & Grease, Dennis
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Well if misery loves company I can sit closer and tell you that I have the same issue with my R80. I thought it was excess from teh rear drive finding its way up the shaft and into the boot as my transmission level is OK. Still haven't figured it out but not sure I really care. I have a couple of Harleys that teach me all about dealing with loss, especially oil.